tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6628299238534654620.post2904841118989248543..comments2024-01-16T17:49:50.776-08:00Comments on The Relevant Mason: A Masonic Response to Stupid AtheismCliff Porterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08225842898777528860noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6628299238534654620.post-44512136113066524842013-01-07T08:30:28.906-08:002013-01-07T08:30:28.906-08:00I enjoyed both the article and Gnocis's commen...I enjoyed both the article and Gnocis's comments as I think I may be classifiable as an atheist or anti-theist myself. Though I am increasingly aware of the structural beauty of this universe and the part of it that is my consciousness. There is certainly a fractal like quality to everything an alpha to omega mirroring of sorts. I think my lack of dogma would be virtuous.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03856361189270205661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6628299238534654620.post-13277596946071882672012-01-17T21:04:12.892-08:002012-01-17T21:04:12.892-08:00I do think that the prohibition, as it is stated, ...I do think that the prohibition, as it is stated, means what it states. The prohibition is against "stupid atheist or irreligious libertine." The two categories thus prohibited appear, in my entirely nonbinding opinion, to be against men so stupid as to be incapable of believing in Deity (or likely many other concepts) and those who do not believe in Deity because they would prefer to avoid sanctions against their own behavior (the "antitheist"). The former would include those whose attitude is "I only believe in that which I can sense with my 5 senses," and the former would be those whose attitude is "I don't care to contemplate such things, as belief would interfere with my ability to freely engage in my favored forms of debauchery." Neither of these are principled, reasoned, or thoughtful positions, rather they are brutish, sensational and cynical positions... in the more classic meanings of these words. <br /><br /><br />The existence of the prohibition against atheists, much like the prohibition against initiating women into Freemasonry, does speak to an apparent long-standing desire by these groups to gain admittance. I do not think either prohibition speaks to either group being unfit for Masonic symbolism or Gnostic mysteries. Pythagoras, in fact, did have women among his adherents, and in some of the Christian Gnostic religions women were admitted to priesthood. Furthermore, the article does not address the interpreted modern extension of the prohibition to include Deists. It seems rather odd that while Masonry has redefined de facto polytheistic religions (Hinduism and Mormonism being the two that come to mind) as "legally monotheistic," it seems to have gone the other way in declaring Deism as insufficient for admittance to the craft. Considering that the forms and rituals of Freemasonry are entirely consistent with Deism, this seems peculiar to me. Perhaps you have a different perspective on the matter. However, even in the sublime degree the prayer is more adulation and encouragement than petition, and leads not to a miracle, but rather to experimentation and the exercise of rational thought to solve what is in essence a physics problem. One might, in fact, call the ritual a "non-miracle play." <br /><br /><br />Given the outward progression of the candidate from the first question to the final close of the second half of the third degree, one might actually argue quite the opposite position to the one your article suggests. The thoughtful atheist might be said to have already derived the tenets attested to by the Masonic rituals--rationality, experimentation and self-reliance without anticipation of miraculous intervention. The rational atheist might therefore be unfit for initiation because he has already learned the principles inculcated within the rituals! :) <br />I would be most interested in your responses.gnocishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07492572756035400106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6628299238534654620.post-29696993253404567212012-01-17T21:01:18.521-08:002012-01-17T21:01:18.521-08:00An interesting and thoughtful article. I agree wit...An interesting and thoughtful article. I agree with much of it, but I question several propositions, however. As to the agreements, it seems likely that the origins of Freemasonry are linked with Gnostic heterodoxy, the mystery schools and the Pythagorean mystery school in particular (and hence the focus on geometry, numbers, and symbols). I suspect that there is likely also some relationship with the Templars as a vehicle of or mingling with heterodox views, likely of a Gnostic nature. This much seems reasonable. <br /><br />I would also agree that it would be wrong to say that the oath of an atheist cannot be relied upon, however I am not sure that ancient brethren would have similarly enlightened views on the matter. Atheists have been barred from giving testimony in courts and from holding public office. Such laws are allegedly still on the books in some of the United States. So there is precedent in the barring atheist oaths, particularly given the formula of Masonic oaths which invoke Deity. <br />Additionally, I would argue that the bar against unbelievers cannot be to prevent mental illness or futile labor in the Craft. While there are many laudable aspects to the Craft, I suspect that in general there is rather a dearth of gnostic adepts notably laboring at any given time in even the most illustrious and active lodges. This is to say that there are rather a lot of folks who join a lodge, and do not contemplate the symbolism or meaning of the rituals. An atheist would be no worse off, and no less or more enlightened in such a lodge than would be rather a lot of believing brothers. In fact, one might argue, a thoughtful atheist brother would potentially benefit from contemplation of the Craft's symbolism and ritual to an even greater degree (pun unintended) than believing brothers. Masonry encourages and celebrates virtuous action, self-reflection, community service and various other laudable goals. <br /><br />Furthermore, if one accepts your premise (which I do not) that an atheist, per se, is living an imbalanced life, then one excellent consequence of an atheist brother would be exposure to the enlightenment values and the attempt at rational and universalized, non-sectarian religious attitude that Freemasonry embodies.gnocishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07492572756035400106noreply@blogger.com